Booster questions
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by Nwcid » Fri Feb 15, 8:58 pm
So this is one of those questions that I don't want to ask because I know I will get some "not this guy again" expressions. Just trying to get all this figure out and what will work best for my situation. I am not sure what many of the "right" questions to ask are so many answers leave me with more questions.
As many of you know we live in the middle of nowhere with the closest dive shop being a 2hr one way trip. We do have access to the local dive team compressor that is set up to only do air. We are doing Nixtro with Bob at the end of the month and plan on starting to PP making our own Nitrox. I do have the Oxygen Hacker book and have read it once so far. If we get more diving in this spring we are planning on doing the IANTD "trimix" course with local instructor in our area.
Since we will be doing all our gas mixing at home it sounds like I need to start looking into a booster unless I outlay lots of money for a cascade system. Then even with a cascade it seems like there will be a fair amount of wasted gas. Plus it would take a system for each gas (O2, He and Ar). I also assume with the booster I could take it and do onsite mixing if we are diving for a couple of days.
So can anyone tell me a bit more about boosters? Or if there are better way in our situation.
John
Check out my site, http://scubadivesites.webs.com/
Re: Booster questions
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by Dusty2 » Fri Feb 15, 9:31 pm
Haskels, AKA boosters are not my purview. I know there dozens of sizes and different types. To get one that is Oxygen safe ain't cheep and you want to make sure it has enough capacity to handle tank fills without taking hours to do so. There are safety precautions that need to be followed when working with Oxygen. One thing I know from welding class is it doesn't like being compressed above psi in it's pure form.
I would contact Randy Williams and see what he has to say. When it come to setting up tech fill stations he really knows his stuff.
Re: Booster questions
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by Jeff Pack » Fri Feb 15, 9:37 pm
Contact us to discuss your requirements of gas booster pumps. Our experienced sales team can help you identify the options that best suit your needs.
Boosters arent really for doing big tanks, because they move a small volume of air.
I got my booster for my rebreather tanks, and mostly to fill O2 or trimix bottles(19-23), or 50% AL 30's or 40's for deco.
Anything else I use my compressor.
And as dusty said, boosters aint cheap, for a good one you arent far off of a compressors price tag..
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- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
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CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
Re: Booster questions
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by Nwcid » Fri Feb 15, 9:42 pm
Between the fact that we have a cascade O2 system at work that I have been using for over a decade and reading the stories in the Hackers book I think I have a decent handle on that part. I am always open to listen to anything someone wants to share with me though.
I understand the boosters are not for doing "big tanks" but from what I thought I read they are for 2 things. First getting the most out of your supply tank. Having an 02 bottle but only being able to use half the gas in it because of pressure equalization does not seem to make sense. The other reason they seem to be used is say I have 1/2 full trimix tanks, I would have to bleed all the expensive gas and start over doing PP mixing. With the booster it sounds like you can just add the amount of O2 or He need. In either case once that part is done you top off with air from the main compressor. Is my understanding wrong?
John
Check out my site, http://scubadivesites.webs.com/
Re: Booster questions
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by CaptnJack » Fri Feb 15, 10:49 pm
Just continuous blend nitrox for the next year+
You are a long way away from diving trimix or needing a booster. And O2 is dirt cheap. The booster and something to drive it with will cost way more than throwing out some O2 now and then. Since your air is free, just drain the nitrox tanks before refilling.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
Re: Booster questions
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by kdupreez » Sat Feb 16, 6:46 pm
I agree with Richard. You should look into Continious blending before bying a booster if the only thing you want to do is pump Nitrox.
making a stick will cost you $50-$100 max and you can suck your source tanks down all the way to zero..
And since you are not pumping higher than 40%, nothing needs to be O2 cleaned.. even the pure O2 portion is such low pressure and flow that it doesnt matter.
But - if you are truly interrested in boosters, you can read the following
LOONG LOONG post to understand pumps and youe have a few options.
If you dont care, please feel free to skip the essay.. I wont be offended.
1 - Pneumatic boosters (like Haskels) will run you anything from $2,500 up to $6,000 when bought used
These boosters rely on a low pressure drive air system, like shop compressor and depending on the model, they can pump single acting or double acting or cascaded combination of the two called double stage double acting.. they of course have Inlet and Outlet ports and port to supply drive air..
They are completely oil less and can be cleaned for oxygen boosting.
You get them in the following three configurations:
Single Stage Single Acting: these have a single high pressure chamber with an inlet and outlet port, each using opposite facing one-way check valves to suck and blow supply gas.. It uses low compression air over a large low pressure piston to cycle the small high pressure piston. The low pressure air allows the piston to actuate once back and forth to suck gas and compress gas.
The ratio between inlet and outlet gas pressures determines the required drive air volume and pressure to actuate (boost).. the higher the ratio (i.e low source banks and high target tank) the more drive gas in volume and pressure you need..
Usually these types of boosters cant go below 300psi on the source tank.. They are usually SLOW and require LOTS of drive air..
They are OK for rebreathers and small partial pressure fill stations (home or small shop use)
Another important thing here to understand is the ratio between the size of the low pressure and high pressure pistons.. the smaller the high pressure piston, the higher the ratio and the higher PSI you can pump.. but because of the small high pressure piston, you will get much lower inlet/outlet gas volumes for the same amount of drive air..
so trade off is higher outlet gas pressure at lower outlet gas volume or higher outlet gas volume at lower outlet gas pressure..
the most common single stage singe acting for diving is the AG-30 or AG-15 and the numbers (30 or 15) defines the poston ratio.. meaning the higher the number, the higher the ratio of low pressure to high pressure pistons.. So, AG-30 pumps higher pressure than AG-15 but much slower (lower volume)
The AG-30 is psi and AG-15 is psi output pressure (I believe).. Both of these can be cleaned for oxygen..
the AG-15 is a great choice for rebreather divers since its high volume, compact system that can go ip to psi..
Single Stage, Double Acting: They are exactly the same as above except they have 2 high pressure chambers, one on either side with the low pressure chamber in the middle, so when the low pressure piston actuates, one side sucks gas, while the other compresses gas.. hence, double acting.. they also have 2 inlets and 2 outlets and is
twice as fast as single acting and using roughly the same drive gas volume. They have the same size of high pressure pistons on both sides and hence they boost same pressures as their single acting counterparts at twice the volume/speed..
everything else is the same as the single acting.. the haskel models indicate the double acting boosters with a "D" in the model..
so a AGD-30 is a Double Acting, but still only has 1 stage of high pressure (both sides pump the same outlet pressure)..
again, AGD-15 is a popular Oxygen booster, but you are still left with about 300-500psi in your source tanks..
Decent volumes and decent pressures..
they make good oxygen boosters for dive shops..
its a less than optimum choice for helium or argon since you will need LOTS of drive gas and still leave 300psi in source tank and the lower the source tank gets and the higher the target tank gets, the slower they are..
Double Stage, Double Acting: These are the holy grail of diving boosters because they can suck source tanks down to 150psi or lower.
They are identical in design to the above, except the two high pressure pistons on either side are firstly diferent sizes (different ratios) and secondly they are cascaded.. meaning the outlet of the one side feeds into the inlet of the other side.. so you get compounded compression!!
So the first stage on the one side will suck in source gas at lets say 300psi, then compress it up to lets say 600psi and feed it into the second stage on the other side that will suck that 600psi in and compress it even further to for example 900psi..
so, with a SINGLE stroke of the piston, you can pump 300psi up to 900psi (fictitious numbers to make the point), where both the other designs will take multiple actuations to reach that pressure..
These are as fast as single acting, but they produce much higher ratios of compression with the same amount of drive gas..
the model numbers indicate double acting with a "T" in the model and they include both the ratios of both sides..
for example an AGT-15/30 has a ratio of 15 on the one side and a ratio of 30 on the other side..
These are awesome boosters and are pretty darn efficient and uses much less drive air and can salvage source tanks of expensive helium down to 150psi!!
they can also be oxygen cleaned..
AGT-15/30 are the most sought after boosters in the diving world.. good luck finding one thats O2 cleaned
you can also look at AGT-30/75 and they can boost up to 20,000psi, but use lots of drive air and slower.. (remember higher ratios = higher pressures, but slower).
2. Finally.. the ULTIMATE in diving boosters are electric boosters!
these are essentially the exact same as a regular scuba compressor, except they are missing the first stages.. the accept 150psi (supplied by internal regulator) and then compress it up to psi with two stages of standard electric compressor technologies..
they are also oil less and can be oxygen cleaned.. they dont take any drive air since they are electric, they are pretty quiet and they are freegin damn fast and very efficient..
Masterline here in Washington makes them and they are around $8,000 a piece.. and good luck finding a used one.. I've tried for the past 5 years and have yet to find one..
So - there you have it. probably more you wanted to know..
"I believe that if life gives you lemons, you should make lemonade... And try to find somebody whose life has given them vodka, and have a party" - Ron White
Re: Booster questions
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by Nwcid » Sat Feb 16, 8:35 pm
Thanks for all the info, I will be reading up on it.
Yes I understand using a stick would be the best way to do it but I don't think that is going to be an option for me. First off it is the County's compressor and I would have to get approval to do anything with it. If I am reading right the stick goes on the intake side of the compressor so that would also effect the air bank. I guess IF I got approval to add a stick we could add enough plumbing to do a bypass. So that is lot's of IF's.
So that puts me back to PP blending.
John
Check out my site, http://scubadivesites.webs.com/
Re: Booster questions
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by CBFin » Sun Feb 17, 7:41 am
Are you interested in learning more about pneumatic chemical injection pump? Contact us today to secure an expert consultation!
PP blending is easy and cheap. I've been doing it for years and every time I think I'm wasting money and should get a booster, I revisit the initial cost, continuing maintenance, and tremendous amount of time it would add to my filling process. I then swap out my O2 tank, with $7 of gas in it, for a full one and remain content the only equipment it need is a fill whip.
In the end we will conserve only what we love. We will love only what we understand. We will understand only what we are taught.
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